In an interview on Q+A with Jack Tame, former Australian Prime Minister Malcom Turnbull said both New Zealand and Australia needed to do more to ensure their defence capabilities are “sovereign”, and not controlled by another country.
“For countries like Australia and New Zealand, we are confronted with a United States with whom we shared the same values for 80 years now no longer sharing those values,” said Turnbull.
He said Trump instead believes in the ethos of “might is right”, and that should be very concerning for smaller countries that rely on the rules-based international order.
Turnbull cited the bullying of NATO members Canada and Denmark in an attempt to annex Canada as the 51st state, and Greenland as American territory, as examples of how the United States has dramatically changed.
“We have to be clear-eyed about this – this is not the United States we grew up with. Trump’s values are more closely aligned with Vladimir Putin than they are with any of his predecessors – Democrat or Republican.”
“This is a time of enormous disruption, and I think the challenge for Australia and New Zealand – we have to look to a world where there is no longer American leadership.”
Turnbull argued the AUKUS deal, in which Australia is scheduled to receive nuclear-powered submarines, puts Australia in a dangerous position and potentially without any submarines at all. He added Australia’s submarine deal as part of Pillar 1, however, is a “massive mistake” and an “absolute shocker”.
Turnbull explained that Australia’s existing fleet is coming to the end of its life, and under the terms of the AUKUS agreement, the Virginia-class submarines can only be given to Australia if the USA has sufficient reserves, which is very unlikely to be the case in the coming decades.
That contrasted with a deal to build submarines Turnbull’s government negotiated with France, which was torn up by Scott Morrison’s government in order to sign up to AUKUS.
Speaking just before ANZAC Day, Turnbull said there is “strength in numbers,” and New Zealand and Australia’s militaries should work together “seamlessly”.
“I think the real issue is that Australia has to do more to make its defence capability sovereign – that is to say independent of any other country, and focus on our ability defend our own country, and in your case your country.”
He said both countries would need to do so “in circumstances where we can’t necessarily rely on the United States.”
In terms of the technology sharing agreement AUKUS Pillar Two – which New Zealand might sign up but has not yet been invited to consider – Turnbull said very little progress had been made so far.
However, he said in principle a technology sharing agreement could have value for New Zealand, depending on the direction any future progress takes.
Q+A with Jack Tame is made with the support of NZ on Air
